Final Scratch

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 01:53 AM

anyone here hassled the kosmic guys about this?

whats peoples opinion of this system?

i dont dj myself (yet! ) but when i do, i dont think i will last long without it, cos the amount of music (especially your own! ) it gives you access to is endless.

do you think this is something which will become standard in perth?, or is it just for nerds?

btw, anyone that hasant heard about this, 1) get out from under the rock and 2) go to stantons website (i understand they are distributing it?)

**sinistah** · 01-03-2002, 02:08 AM

i have no fucking idea what your talking about.

**inter-phazer** · 01-03-2002, 10:34 AM

something about scratching i think , but i don't know anything about that

**nigel** · 01-03-2002, 11:19 AM

It's not cool at all! But it would probably be fun to play with.

Check it out here.

**inter-phazer** · 01-03-2002, 11:23 AM

plurrr !!!!!

**nigel** · 01-03-2002, 11:29 AM

So basically you have a pair of turntables and a mixer, and a laptop and a duel soundcard box.
You load your mp3s and you can mix them like vinyl. On the turntables is 2 pieces of 'vinyl' which are connected somehow to the computer. The computer sends information to the grooves in these 'records' and the stylus picks up the signal as if it was a normal record.

Interesting concept. No need for a flight case weighing 50kgs anymore!

**Section9** · 01-03-2002, 11:38 AM

yer dudes lets try eradicate the last surviving source of warm, smooth & unmatched analogue sound quality!

**Section9** · 01-03-2002, 11:40 AM

and then what of the whole culture that goes with collecting records, record shopping and the copyright implications...

it'll never happen.

**nigel** · 01-03-2002, 12:01 PM

I agree. Although I can see how this would be handy, I can't ever see vinyl being replaced.

I hope.

**leonm** · 01-03-2002, 12:07 PM

Section 9, it is in fact ANALOG, since the mp3 is played through the needle, as per a normal record.

As for it touching down, Richie Hawtin attempted to use it at Gaycrasher Summer Sound Festival...but it fux0red up.

The system has major advantages over vinyl, as the DJ can remix/filter/effect each inidividual track digitally, then play it down on vinyl...for a SUPERB example of this, check Richie Robot Hawtins mix/remix CD, DE9:Closer to the Edit.

**richw** · 01-03-2002, 12:39 PM

I thought the special vinyl used for it have the control signal beeps (something like a frequency ramped pulse, so the time between pulses gives you "pitch" and ramp up or ramp down gives you direction) in a lock groove that get sampled by the scratch amp and used to control playback of the mp3 which is fed directly into the dj mixer. If you use a normal record the signal is fed straight through the scratch amp to the mixer.

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 12:54 PM

its not about replacing vinyls at all.. the new pioneer cdj - now thats about replacing vinyls

its about expanding your music collection beyond your record box. basically for those that dont know - you connect the phono out of your turntables into this usb box thing basically which then goes to your laptop.

from this box theres phono outs which go to your mixer phono in and line outs which go to your mixer line in.

when you just wanna mix plain old vinyl you switch your mixer channels to phono and play like normal. but when you wanna mix a mp3 off your computer you switch one of your mixer channels to line in and put a special 'final scratch' record on turntable.

i dont know exactly whats on these records but i think its like some weird tracking signals or something, because as you manipulate it, the mp3 on your laptop gets manipulated accordingly and played through the line in. in effect the mp3 is kindof 'mapped' onto the vinyl, so if you drop the needle at the 3min spot on the vinyl the mp3 will play at the 3 minute spot.

its cool cos you can mix a mp3 into a normal vinyl , or 2 mp3's into each other or mix 2 normal vinyls.

leonm - its definetly not analog, its played through the line in on ya mixer, its just controlled by an analog vinyl.

reading an interview with richie hawtin - most of his sets are like about 50% viynl and 50% digital music (oh yeah you would probably use .wav not mp3 - both are supported) but he has done sets entirely with his laptop (when his records dont arrive)

**FridgeBuzz** · 01-03-2002, 02:10 PM

A fun toy, but it will never replace the real thing, just as its handy to have a cdj for your latest remix, but it wont replace dub plates proper.

final scratch is a weenies toy

besides you would have to use wav files as mp3 would be rather shite over a large system. so there goes that 'advantage'

If your going to play around with loops why not just go straigh from the computer, rather than Fuxing around with all this other shit.

Vinyl is too 1337

Vinyl will never die!!!!

**richw** · 01-03-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Pickle @ 01-3-2002 11:54

i dont know exactly whats on these records but i think its like some weird tracking signals or something, because as you manipulate it, the mp3 on your laptop gets manipulated accordingly and played through the line in. in effect the mp3 is kindof 'mapped' onto the vinyl, so if you drop the needle at the 3min spot on the vinyl the mp3 will play at the 3 minute spot.

How does this mapping occur?!? What instantaneous quality of the signal (or even measurable over a very short duration) would be able to indicate the location on record?!? This is an interesting problem...

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 02:53 PM

fridgebuzz - you dont have to use wav format, but if i was using mp3 ild want at least 192kbps. its not loops, its entire songs. you use the vinyl to control it so you can beatmix, scratch, whatever like a normal vinyl. its designed so it can work seamlessly with an existing dj setup. so as long as theres enough room for a laptop a dj can set it up in about 5 minutes. and its definetly not a weenies toy, alot of big name djs (digweed i know for sure) are first in line to get one.

richie hawtins been using it for ages and heres a bit of an interview i found (done late last year):

----------------------------------------------
"We did a 'JAK' party in Detroit recently," Hawtin says, "and I wanted to do something special for it. So I re-edited [the J.M. Silk song] 'Jack Your Body' so it only said 'Jack,' making it a five-minute track. I took the opening of Prince's '1999', the part that says 'Don't worry, I won't hurt you...' and looped that into a track. I did all of that and more on a plane flight back from England!

"Being a DJ has always been about who had certain records first," he continues. "Now it'll be about who makes the coolest version. You have even more possibilities to make your DJ sets something unique that people really want to experience."

With superstar DJs like Jeff Mills and John Digweed first in line for prototypes, Hawtin is hoping that Final Scratch will be available to the public by early next year, ideally at a retail price around $500 or less.
-----------------------------------------------

**pÃ´m** · 01-03-2002, 03:02 PM

it seems interesting (although i have little idea how it works)

but if someone like richie hawtin is using it regularly it's got to be fairly valid..

apparently hes been tinkering about with other bits of technology lately as well (may have showed it off at welcome 2002, if he had it mastered in time?)

things like the final scratch give djs the ability to really personalise a set.. ala dave clarke and his fx box.. rather than just mixing plaino tracks

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by richw @ 01-3-2002 13:23

Originally Posted by Pickle @ 01-3-2002 11:54

i dont know exactly whats on these records but i think its like some weird tracking signals or something, because as you manipulate it, the mp3 on your laptop gets manipulated accordingly and played through the line in. in effect the mp3 is kindof 'mapped' onto the vinyl, so if you drop the needle at the 3min spot on the vinyl the mp3 will play at the 3 minute spot.

How does this mapping occur?!? What instantaneous quality of the signal (or even measurable over a very short duration) would be able to indicate the location on record?!? This is an interesting problem...

im fairly sure , not 100% though:

its definetly not an analog signal like you were talking about before. having a frequency ramp type setup would technically work but it would be really inaccurate, subject to interference and would depend too much on the freq. response of the cartridges you were using.

its a digital signal and is coded to increase over the length of the vinyl. it would be a code which does not repeat itself no matter what point you start reading it. this means that you can drop the needle anywhere and within a certain time it knows where it is and there no chance that that particular pattern of 1's and 0's could be repeated anywhere else.

**richw** · 01-03-2002, 03:33 PM

I guess this encoding on the vinyl is the key. Still its an analog signal that has to be sampled by the scratch amp and then interpreted.

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by richw @ 01-3-2002 14:33

I guess this encoding on the vinyl is the key. Still its an analog signal that has to be sampled by the scratch amp and then interpreted.

no its a digital signal, its decoded by the scratch amp, the location of the vinyl is then sent to the computer which plays the relevant part.

**richw** · 01-03-2002, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pickle @ 01-3-2002 14:41

Originally Posted by richw @ 01-3-2002 14:33

I guess this encoding on the vinyl is the key. Still its an analog signal that has to be sampled by the scratch amp and then interpreted.

no its a digital signal, its decoded by the scratch amp, the location of the vinyl is then sent to the computer which plays the relevant part.

AH yeah, just had a read of the manual... bleh not thinking quite straight...

**leonm** · 01-03-2002, 06:33 PM

hmmm, im confused.

if its a digital signal, then how can one pass the digital signal through the PHONO out on the turntable, into the USB on scractch amp??? surely there is some ANALOG - DIGITAL process involved.

**FridgeBuzz** · 01-03-2002, 07:25 PM

fridgebuzz - you dont have to use wav format,

No you would use Wav files because Mp3 files over a big system would sound crap, too much compression

its not loops, its entire songs.

Ive read articles about it, I know its entire songs, but whats the point, why not have your entire songs [ or loops/samples] if your playing live straight from whatever program your using, why bother Fuxing around with turntables at all?

[/quote]alot of big name djs (digweed i know for sure[quote]
Oooooh big name Djs use it so it must be good, bollux.

Also as far as I know the ear is trained on Analog sound, thats why most records sound so warm and good, and the old analog synths make such a good sound.

*error* my computer crashed, gee fuck I hope the crowd doesnt notice, hmmm maybe I should do some dick puppetry

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by leonm @ 01-3-2002 17:33

hmmm, im confused.

if its a digital signal, then how can one pass the digital signal through the PHONO out on the turntable, into the USB on scractch amp??? surely there is some ANALOG - DIGITAL process involved.

just dont think in terms of analog and digital. a digital signal is really just an analog signal with certain properties that allow you to detect 1's and 0's.

take your typical square wave found on almost any synthesiser. lets say you have a 200hz square wave pressed on vinyl - put that baby through your speakers and youll get some nice fat bass happening.

now take the same 200hz square wave on vinyl and instead of playing it, put it through some kind of digital decoder - this decoder gives a 1 if the signal is high and a 0 is the signal is low. if you do this the decoder will give 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0...

in the second case the signal would be called a digital signal simply because its being used to transmit 1's and 0's.

**FridgeBuzz** · 01-03-2002, 07:36 PM

pickle = techno weenie

aslong as Digweeed is using it Im in for it

**Pickle** · 01-03-2002, 07:49 PM

Also as far as I know the ear is trained on Analog sound, thats why most records sound so warm and good, and the old analog synths make such a good sound.

old analog synths do sound very nice, but the thing is 90% of songs these days are recorded digitally at the last stage anyway. and once you do this, from a sound quality point of view its best to put it on cd because the SNR of cds is much better than vinyls.

**leonm** · 02-03-2002, 09:37 AM

yes Pickle, so in essence, there is an analog to digital conversion going on...

the actual sound you hear is digital, but the means of getting it involves the use of an analog system.

**Pickle** · 02-03-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by leonm @ 02-3-2002 08:37

yes Pickle, so in essence, there is an analog to digital conversion going on...

the actual sound you hear is digital, but the means of getting it involves the use of an analog system.

yep, in essence.

the way they have done it is good actually, it would be very reliable and robust. they reckon one pair of the special vinyls that you use will last for a good year under heavy usage.

the weak link would be the laptop, cos you would wanna have a good one. laptops are nortorius for crashing, especially when they get hot

**teknikal1200** · 02-03-2002, 02:06 PM

im not sure how into it i am at all.
i guess its an awesome idea and actually putting it together is fucken unblievable... but it fully doesnt have the authenticity.
when i mix i dont want to have to fumble and fuck around on a comptuer at the same time.
and i like the feeling when u walk out of a record store with a bag full of new wax.
nothing can replace that.
its just not the same.....

**FridgeBuzz** · 03-03-2002, 04:47 AM

yeah Rez to that Teknikal

**Section9** · 05-03-2002, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by leonm @ 02-3-2002 08:37

yes Pickle, so in essence, there is an analog to digital conversion going on...

the actual sound you hear is digital, but the means of getting it involves the use of an analog system.

my point was if this thing sounds as nice as a piece of fresh vinyl ill eat my hat.

who cares about SNR wont somebody think of the warmth!

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