Occupy All the Things!!

[chay]

thought now there were imminent occupy happenings planned for perth, and there is already discussion across various threads, it would valid to start a new thread...

the best and worst thing about this movement is that there ARE so many different people, with so many different ideas, but all are involved and all feel that things could be better for everyone. i cringe when i hear some of the sound bites repeated by the media - they are not my ideas, nor why i am there. but that just makes it more important that i AM there, so i can have my ideas heard too.

yes australia is "better off" than most of the world. yes we have a different set of issues. yes the occupy idea was taken from the happenings in america. do any of these things make it invalid for people of all beliefs and political backgrounds to come together with a sense that things just aren't right?

the idea of a leaderless group of individuals united only by an idea, is not new (hello anonymous!). the concept that ordinary people can start a discussion of what is happening in our world today, is hardly radical.

discuss

*edit: i have just realised reading the responses to this thread are probably only going to make me even more depressed (as reading the carbon tax and liberal / government threads do) but here we go i guess

[IXin]

Thanks for making a new thread, the subject warrants it.

You know I agree with you and your misgivings with my conservatism. Things just aren't right but are they really wrong either??????

It shames me that in my privileged position above the poverty line I am not in any way more enlightened and able to form an opinion as to whether I agree or disagree with the OCCUPY Australia movement.

However I will (always) be happy that people are banding together for some discourse and conflict.

The ideology behind the occupy movements smacks of socialism and there's no way that the 1% will ever ever ever let a socialist economic model come into force.

[chay]

instead of "are things right / wrong" what about "could things be better?"

[monkey]

[IXin]

instead of "are things right / wrong" what about "could things be better?"

Could things be worse?

[kantankruz]

It will be a fizzle, prob about 8 people will attend, it's the Perth way, whinge your ass off on Perthnow.com, but do nothing if it means getting off your couch.

[little dead gracey]

What a beautiful way of looking at things.

[Curare]

Could things be worse?

They could be on fire.

[kantankruz]

What a beautiful way of looking at things.

It's reality

[heist]

I think the Occupy thing in Australia is a bit bullshit because there's no metric for success... There's nothing that can be done that will satisfy the demands.

I understand and share the view that "Shit is fucked up and bullshit", but that's not a demand.

A protest or a demonstration usually has certain demands, or forces a discussion, or at least has a timeframe. And I think in the US it has a fairly solid foundation in that they were extremely unhappy with government-by-lobby and a few rich bankers holding the keys to their collective coffers.

But over here it seems to be about sitting somewhere until you're arrested to demonstrate your ennui and general anti-corporate sentiment. I'm glad that people are being active, but they're skipping straight to the action without the organisation. Everyone yelling for a bunch of vague shit all at once is unlikely to result in change from the top.

I suppose it may result in a few more people around the middle and bottom becoming a bit more conscious, but then it's just an awareness campaign. Surely something this disruptive should be more effective than that.

[Corteks]

the idea of a leaderless group of individuals united only by an idea, is not new (hello anonymous!). the concept that ordinary people can start a discussion of what is happening in our world today, is hardly radical.

I've gotta give this thread a proper read later, but...

[Lyris]

erm.. I don't get how it's so disruptive.. there are things on in forest chase all the time. if this raises more awareness then it's all worth it

[heist]

erm.. I don't get how it's so disruptive.. there are things on in forest chase all the time. if this raises more awareness then it's all worth it

i mean "disruptive" in the sense of "disruptive innovation" - it is getting a lot of attention, and potentially has the ability to enact change

[Lyris]

I'm confused

[heist]

ok - it's disruptive, it's shaking shit up, it's got a lot of attention. but it's not trying to get anything done.

[Lyris]

if it promotes awareness and discussion of the issues people have and like you said may even enact change, isn't that getting stuff done?

it's up to individuals to make change when it comes down to it.

[heist]

if it promotes awareness and discussion of the issues people have and like you said may even enact change, isn't that getting stuff done?

no, discussion and the potential for change is not getting things done

[Lyris]

lol. I think it is

[little dead gracey]

It's reality

I actually meant in response to Ixin, but it worked out nicely

http://occupyperth.org/2011/10/photo...15th-assembly/

seems to be a few more than 8 people there

That was 2 weeks ago as well. Before M E L B O U R N E turned to shit.

[Buffle]

These two things I find highly problematic:

• Large corporations are not democratically elected by the people to represent their interests and do not have social interests as their primary objective, yet they have enormous power to influence society and even the meanings attributed within it, as well as government policy. For one small example, as it stands at the moment any company concerned about implications of coming government policy would do very well to target investment from super funds - a great lever and elasticiser of morals and ethics.
• The proportion of wealth generated from financial services as opposed to more direct goods and services - the things that provide the immediate value that money is supposedly representative of.

Economics is absolutely not an area of knowledge in any substantial depth for me, so I'd very much like to hear others' take on these.

[flauntster]

but do nothing if it means getting off your couch.

have you seen my couch dude? its comfy as fuck.

[Lyris]

• The proportion of wealth generated from financial services as opposed to more direct goods and services - the things that provide the immediate value that money is supposedly representative of.

Economics is absolutely not an area of knowledge in any substantial depth for me, so I'd very much like to hear others' take on these.

I don't know if this is on the same track but it is scary how little we produce for ourselves.. we are so reliant on importing/exporting of goods and we are losing the skills required to be self sufficient. I read somewhere the other day that for 3 generations now we have been reliant on supermarkets providing our food.

[frogman]

no, discussion and the potential for change is not getting things done

Its getting the issue out into the public discourse though.

[frogman]

I don't know if this is on the same track but it is scary how little we produce for ourselves.. we are so reliant on importing/exporting of goods and we are losing the skills required to be self sufficient. I read somewhere the other day that for 3 generations now we have been reliant on supermarkets providing our food.

This is not a bad thing. Not needing to grow our own food gives rise to all sorts of other benefits. Do you think it would be possible to have such a vibrant arts and music culture if everyone was forced to spend 6 hours a day making sure they can eat?

Unless you are talking about Australia in general, in which case I would argue you are slightly misguided. Australia can be self sufficient if we are smart about it (IE not attempting to grow rice below the tropics). I believe we are a net exporter of food, we have the raw resources to build everything we need.

[Lyris]

I think we would if it meant we weren't working 8 hours a day in an office 5 days a week

[Lyris]

also.. it takes us about 10 minutes a day and 3 hours every couple of weeks to maintain our vege patch.. which feeds a family

[frogman]

also.. it takes us about 10 minutes a day and 3 hours every couple of weeks to maintain our vege patch.. which feeds a family

And how much space does that take up? and is that year round? What about people who live in flats?

[Lyris]

Unless you are talking about Australia in general, in which case I would argue you are slightly misguided. Australia can be self sufficient if we are smart about it (IE not attempting to grow rice below the tropics). I believe we are a net exporter of food, we have the raw resources to build everything we need.

agree we can be self sufficient on both an individual and national level.. although I think trade is good for some things like spices which can only be grown in certain parts of the world etc.

I was speaking on more of an individual basis though, losing skills like how to make things, grow things etc

[Lyris]

And how much space does that take up? and is that year round? What about people who live in flats?

as much space as is in a regular backyard.. have you seen the photos? it feeds the whole family all year round. after a year or so it will feed all our chooks also :P we're getting there.

people who live in flats can use their carparks as gardens since they won't need cars in my dream utopia

[flauntster]

also.. it takes us about 10 minutes a day and 3 hours every couple of weeks to maintain our vege patch.. which feeds a family

a family of VEGETARIANS :P

on that note though, my dad has the craziest vegie patch ive ever seen, and he breeds NZ white rabbits for meat, which taste pretty good!

[VERSTYLE]

I think the Occupy thing in Australia is a bit bullshit because there's no metric for success... There's nothing that can be done that will satisfy the demands.

I understand and share the view that "Shit is fucked up and bullshit", but that's not a demand.

A protest or a demonstration usually has certain demands, or forces a discussion, or at least has a timeframe. And I think in the US it has a fairly solid foundation in that they were extremely unhappy with government-by-lobby and a few rich bankers holding the keys to their collective coffers.

But over here it seems to be about sitting somewhere until you're arrested to demonstrate your ennui and general anti-corporate sentiment. I'm glad that people are being active, but they're skipping straight to the action without the organisation. Everyone yelling for a bunch of vague shit all at once is unlikely to result in change from the top.

I suppose it may result in a few more people around the middle and bottom becoming a bit more conscious, but then it's just an awareness campaign. Surely something this disruptive should be more effective than that.

Yeah i tend to agree...

The movements have different foundations.

Although I think over time the US rally has started to resemble something similar to those which followed it in the Australia.

The US movement started as a gathering that crossed a political divide by garnering the support of disaffected people irrespective of their background or underlying beliefs, in essence it was less of a pointed political rally and a broader social rally. Sadly, any hope that this could have brought about a bi-partisan approach to addressing broken facets of the economic, political and judicial systems in the US have since faded.

From the beginning, the Australian movement has had all the hallmarks of typical leftie rally, the messages are perhaps clearer than that of their US counterparts and they certainly embody a strong political undertone. This is something that doesn't necessarily resonate with a significant percentage of the Australian population.

I think the biggest mistake of those protesting or perhaps those organising "OCCUPY" (in Australia) is that they failed to differentiate a message about "corporate greed" from a general grudge about capitalism. It's difficult to grow a populist movement surrounding the pitfuls of our economic system when we're a country at comparitively high employment participation, high wages and sound infrastructure to the rest of the world.

[Lyris]

a family of VEGETARIANS :P

on that note though, my dad has the craziest vegie patch ive ever seen, and he breeds NZ white rabbits for meat, which taste pretty good!

haha aww! I don't know if I could eat my own animals my brother is keen as to kill and eat our chooks but there is no way I could do it lol

[IXin]

Amen Versetyle.

Come on, I know we try to be America's little brother but in this instance there is little point in trying to take their rallying causes as our own, because we are " a country at near high employment participation, high wages and sound infrastructure comparitive to the rest of the world "

I'm gonna occupy Lyris's house 2nayte

[frogman]

as much space as is in a regular backyard.. have you seen the photos? it feeds the whole family all year round. after a year or so it will feed all our chooks also :P we're getting there.

people who live in flats can use their carparks as gardens since they won't need cars in my dream utopia

So you can feed a family of 4 year round in a space the size of a car park? Im impressed.

[little dead gracey]

Again, missing the entire point.

[little dead gracey]

Amen Versetyle.

Come on, I know we try to be America's little brother but in this instance there is little point in trying to take their rallying causes as our own, because we are " a country at near high employment participation, high wages and sound infrastructure comparitive to the rest of the world "

I'm gonna occupy Lyris's house 2nayte

Again, missing the entire point

[nVs]

i will occupy my chair and later some beers!

job done!

take that!

[IXin]

^
Pray tell in one concise sentence what is the point?

Preferably one that can fit on a placard.

[Multivital]

soooo

what I am hearing from the resident TS middle class white males is that a movement that is at its base level opposed to the hierarchical organisation of society, its control through the creation of artificial barriers and the false perception that reality is driven by subjective process frameworks

needs to organise itself hierarchically, align itself with artificial barriers and deliver its *demands* according to the designated process frameworks.

uhuhuhuhuh

[chay]

I think the Occupy thing in Australia is a bit bullshit because there's no metric for success... There's nothing that can be done that will satisfy the demands.

I understand and share the view that "Shit is fucked up and bullshit", but that's not a demand.

A protest or a demonstration usually has certain demands, or forces a discussion, or at least has a timeframe. And I think in the US it has a fairly solid foundation in that they were extremely unhappy with government-by-lobby and a few rich bankers holding the keys to their collective coffers.

i don't see it as a protest or a demonstration - its a movement. i think the BEST thing about it is that there are no demands - just lots of ideas. a demand implies you need to sum up everything in one neat little sentence, and then if you don't (or can't) solve it right then and there you've somehow "failed".

its taken decades (tens of them even) for the world to get to this point - why does an emergent collective like the "occupy" movement have to come up with all the solutions in a particular time frame? how are they meant to make anything happen unless there is discussion about it first?

But over here it seems to be about sitting somewhere until you're arrested to demonstrate your ennui and general anti-corporate sentiment. I'm glad that people are being active, but they're skipping straight to the action without the organisation. Everyone yelling for a bunch of vague shit all at once is unlikely to result in change from the top.

I suppose it may result in a few more people around the middle and bottom becoming a bit more conscious, but then it's just an awareness campaign. Surely something this disruptive should be more effective than that.

actually there is massive organisation - everything decided for the group is only enacted after a general assembly, where proposals are only passed by a minimum 90% consensus. the occupy M E L B O U R N E collective has working groups (indigenous, legal, education, logistics, media, direct action) which coordinate everything. anyone can join these groups. then after that there are discussion groups where people actually talk about ideas (finance/banking, education, equality, social justice etc).

even after the "action" of last friday here, what to do afterwards decided by consensus, by the general assembly. seriously, over 500 people all came together, discussed, and modified ideas until every single person was happy with the plan, timeframe, and location of the new camp. i can't even agree with luke on what to have for dinner. tell me that's not organisation?

its really hard for me to explain and i wouldnt have believed it either if i hadn't seen it myself. the process takes a long time and is sometimes frustrating. but i guarantee you the plan was NOT to "jump straight into action". all of the organisation they DID do was destroyed, so as a result of that they had no choice but to continue yelling a few vague slogans, while the organisation gets back on track.

give them time. the worst that can happen is nothing will change and everyone will continue to be blissfully unaffected.

[Lyris]

So you can feed a family of 4 year round in a space the size of a car park? Im impressed.

you could feed a whole lot more in the space of a car park.. our space is about 18m x 10m

edit: oh.. you meant a single car bay.. yeah altogether I reckon you could feed a block of flats using their car parking and balconies

[Multivital]

soooo

what I am hearing from the resident TS middle class white males is that a movement that is at its base level opposed to the hierarchical organisation of society, its control through the creation of artificial barriers and the false perception that reality is driven by subjective process frameworks

needs to organise itself hierarchically, align itself with artificial barriers and deliver its *demands* according to the designated process frameworks.

uhuhuhuhuh

or to put it another way

OWS - SOCIETY HAS TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH THAT ARE PLACED TO FUNNEL WEALTH TO THE 1%


TS WHITE MALES - I CAN'T HEAR YOU UNLESS YOU JUMP THROUGH THESE HOOPS RIGHT HERE

[chay]

soooo

what I am hearing from the resident TS middle class white males is that a movement that is at its base level opposed to the hierarchical organisation of society, its control through the creation of artificial barriers and the false perception that reality is driven by subjective process frameworks

needs to organise itself hierarchically, align itself with artificial barriers and deliver its *demands* according to the designated process frameworks.

uhuhuhuhuh

god damnit you managed to say what i wanted with less paragraphs AND less caps

how is that possible? :P

[VERSTYLE]

I actually meant in response to Ixin, but it worked out nicely

http://occupyperth.org/2011/10/photo...15th-assembly/

seems to be a few more than 8 people there

That was 2 weeks ago as well. Before M E L B O U R N E turned to shit.

8 people more than a typical busy day in the central city.

[Multivital]

8 people more than a typical busy day in the central city.

herp derp?

[little dead gracey]

^
Pray tell in one concise sentence what is the point?

Preferably one that can fit on a placard.

A movement where you are free to protest about whatever you see fit, whatever you think is injust. I'm sure they would let you talk about your garlic.

[little dead gracey]

8 people more than a typical busy day in the central city.

Thanks for doing what you do best

[heist]

soooo

what I am hearing from the resident TS middle class white males is that a movement that is at its base level opposed to the hierarchical organisation of society, its control through the creation of artificial barriers and the false perception that reality is driven by subjective process frameworks

needs to organise itself hierarchically, align itself with artificial barriers and deliver its *demands* according to the designated process frameworks.

uhuhuhuhuh

i can't speak for versetyle but if that's what you heard in what i said you're an idiot

[Multivital]

i can't speak for versetyle but if that's what you heard in what i said you're an idiot

why that's exactly what you said!

hint - first clue 'metric for success'

I do understand you mean well, but the scary thing is you can't see how your pliable your psychology is in terms of maintaining the conservative status quo.

your premise is inherently rooted in conformity whether or not you are capable of perceiving it from within.

that's kind of the issue at stake here and kind of the issue that will determine the success, or lack of, OWS/AUS.

sure, your POV isn't as inherently dick-like as verstyle's FUCK DA HIPPIES I LOVE TH A CORPORATE KAWK

but saying 'oh well you need to do it this way or it doesn't count' is only one step back from that in practical terms

[VERSTYLE]

soooo

what I am hearing from the resident TS middle class white males is that a movement that is at its base level opposed to the hierarchical organisation of society, its control through the creation BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH of artificial barriers and the false perception that reality is driven by subjective process frameworks

needs to organise itself hierarchically, align itself with artificial barriers and deliver its *demands* according to the designated process frameworks.

In other words

Press release from Burney...

The 20+ million who havn't joined the OCCUPY protests in Australia are white middle class males.