Iran vs The West

[frogman]

Before I get too heavily into this, I sort of wanted to find out what TS thinks.

Is Iran in the wrong here? Does the sabre rattling amount to much? Should sanctions be tightened? Are they pursuing nuclear weapons?

Whats your opinion?

[dart]

well i noticed the west had an editorial piece yesterday saying we had to watch out for iran.

so i guess we're on the way to having a new war to replace the iraq one.

swapping Eurasia with Eastasia.

me i'm completely ignorant of it all, so i'll just be reading this thread, noting down what frogman and burnside say and then use that as my position when i attend dinner parties to help spice up the conversation

[Mono Lisa]

*sends dinner invite to dart*

[Yossarian]

me i'm completely ignorant of it all, so i'll just be reading this thread, noting down what frogman and burnside say and then use that as my position when i attend dinner parties to help spice up the conversation

lol good one.

What specifically are you referring to froggie? Iran attempting to acquire nuclear weapons and the western response (specifically the US?)? Or the regime in general and how it is viewed and treated by the west?

[frogman]

lol good one.

What specifically are you referring to froggie? Iran attempting to acquire nuclear weapons and the western response (specifically the US?)? Or the regime in general and how it is viewed and treated by the west?

Happy to accept any worthwhile input, but im more interested in the perceived actions around their nuclear program.

[monkey]

More nations with nukes = more chance of nuclear war.

Theres already enough tards with their finger on the button.

[dart]

*sends dinner invite to dart*

oh yes!

i'll drink all your red wine and get opinionated and beligerant. . .

"and another thing. . . . "

"you know what you should do is. . . . "

[David]

Excuse my ignorance but if Iran want to posses nuclear weapons, what is it about making them that is so difficult that they have not already made them.

[Yossarian]

Happy to accept any worthwhile input, but im more interested in the perceived actions around their nuclear program.

I think given their situation and the actions and words of that regime, it is very hard to imagine that their nuclear program is wholly peaceful in nature or even that that is a goal at all. More nukes: never a good thing. I don't really know if sanctions are an effective deterrent, certainly they have a major economic impact but they probably also reinforce and us (note: not capitalised) vs. them mentality that creates the "need" for nukes in the first place.

Is Iran in the wrong? Absolutely, I think ANY country that pursues nuclear weapons, despite the global or near-global consensus that it is a very bad thing, is in the wrong. Mind you, I think the regime in general is a piece of shit, I don't think anyone can really deny that given their oppression of their own people and some of the batshit things they clearly believe. Fingers do need to be pointed at the US, Israel and the west in general for helping to completely fuck up what apparently (hell, it was a long time before I was alive) one of the relatively more enlightened and progressive countries in the middle east. Even if that 'enlightenment' was somewhat forced on them, I doubt the people of Iran had massive issue pre- islamic revolution with their freedoms per se. More with the political situation.

None of that absolves Iran of the stupidity it is (IMHO) currently engaging in however. Some kind of response is inevitable and probably needs to be made. What the most appropriate one is, I don't know. I do sure as hell know that it's not invasion or bombing the shit out of them.

[Yossarian]

Excuse my ignorance but if Iran want to posses nuclear weapons, what is it about making them that is so difficult that they have not already made them.

While the concept of a nuclear bomb is very simple, there are a lot of technical issues in enriching uranium correctly, designing the warhead so that fission actually occurs when you want it to and also in constructing a proper delivery system (ie. ballistic missiles). None of them are insurmountable, they just take time. It took the US several years in WW2 to come up with a nuclear bomb and they had some of the best scientists in history working on that shit.

[fatnick]

so who reckons the US have nukes? just a game of keeping them a secret? Or is there a genuine UN agreement that nukes are just a big NO-NO?

what is the actual spelt out deal on nuclear weapons?

[Multivital]

so who reckons the US have nukes? just a game of keeping them a secret? Or is there a genuine UN agreement that nukes are just a big NO-NO?

what is the actual spelt out deal on nuclear weapons?

notsureifserious.jpg

[David]

sometimes i think my ass possesses nuclear weapons.

[frogman]

Excuse my ignorance but if Iran want to posses nuclear weapons, what is it about making them that is so difficult that they have not already made them.

Well the current way to do it is with a gas centrifuge. You convert your uranium into uranium hexafluoride (UF6). Now UF6 is a badass gas. It's radioactive, poisonous, reacts violently with pretty much everything, and will corrode most metals. It's not the sort of thing you want to have around if you can avoid it. Next you feed it into a centrifuge and spin the shit out of it. The goal here is to separate the heavy U238 containing gas from the lighter U235 containing gas. Now there's two big problems with that. First, U235 only makes up about 0.72% of natural Uranium. Second, the difference in weights you're exploiting is 0.0000000000000000000000050247g. The low prevalence of your target molecules combined with the infinitesimal weight difference makes the entire process very inefficient. You need either the patience of a saint, or a HUGE number of very sensitive centrifuges to get enough enriched material out to make a bomb.

Some dude explained the process better than I can.

notsureifserious.jpg

I was going to shitpile on that post, but figured it must be a troll. Noone is that fucking retarded.

Yossarian stuff

Going to answer this in due course.

[Slurm]

World police parks war-starting machines on a nation's doorstep and blames it for rattling sabres.

Till the yanks fuck off home from all the places in the world they have their cocks stirring colon, there will never be any kind of peace.

Blaming the Iranians for the current situation and therefore punishing the Iranian people is all kinds of retarded.

[Deej]

Im pretty ignorant about the whole thing, but the crazy docos I watch say the US have planned on a war with Iran for years, and if they invade it will be a US/Israel vs China/Russia SLOBBERKNOCKER!

a.k.a WW3...

The US need to stay the fuck out of everyones business. YOU CAN'T HAVE NUKES! ONLY WE CAN!

[Onijin]

Bet the US wouldn't like it if the Russians parked a few battleships in international waters in the Bering Strait within artillery or missile range of Anchorage.

[fatnick]

notsureifserious.jpg

hah i do admit my ignorance. But how far can the NNPT take us when all US's enemies keep on stirring shit. Surely they would have a back-up plan? If a war erupted against nuclear enabled countries, would the US finally scramble to catch up so they can threaten back with equal force?

[Multivital]

hah i do admit my ignorance. But how far can the NNPT take us when all US's enemies keep on stirring shit. Surely they would have a back-up plan? If a war erupted against nuclear enabled countries, would the US finally scramble to catch up so they can threaten back with equal force?

this smells like such a trap

backing away

[fatnick]

awww c'mon, i wanna hear it from thee great minds, rather than Barry from warehouse who is oh so happy to tell me all the 'facts' he 'knows for sure'

[Curare]

LOL!

[Multivital]

ok

this is all you get

the US has nuclear weapons already

in fact

they even dropped some on the japs

[Curare]

You don't say!

[Grover]

ok

this is all you get

the US has nuclear weapons already

in fact

they even dropped some on the japs

You mean the tsunami was CAUSED BY THE MERKINS??? What a bunch of cunts.

[Grover]

re. Iran...
I dig Iran. Well, not the twinks in charge, or the stonings, beheadings and general lack of human rights etc. But other than that those Iranians are alright.

Let's just say I'm very, very sceptical of anything that is reported in our media. The anti-Iranian sentiment that has been created over the years is astounding. The Yanks have been chip-chip-chipping away since they got their nose out of joint in the 70s and will stop at nothing to get what they've got. Simple. It will happen, and the rest of us will sit back and let it happen, because we all think the Iranians are the baddies.

re. nukes - I see no reason why they can't have a nuclear program when over 30 other countries develop power this way. OH NO THEY MIGHT MAKE A BOMB ffs North Korea, India and Pakistan pose bigger threats than Iran.

/my 2c

[Hoser]

Sanction their oil= removal of crazy government= win for the Iranian people.

[HERETIK]

can you also get rid of our and Americas crazy government too? they aren't doing us (it's people) any favours either.

[Haile Selassie]

The government is unpopular but the population are very patriotic. Trying to do anything to the government via military means will play into their hands.

Slurm, do you think America leaving the Strait of Hormuz going to stabilise the region?

[badr]

Sanction their oil= removal of crazy government= win for the Iranian people.

haha thats the funniest thing I've read today.

[flauntster]

i read the thread title as "irvan vs the west" and was expecting some epic 'shopping

[dart]

i read the thread title as "irvan vs the west" and was expecting some epic 'shopping

where irvan photochops something from the west australian each day?

chopping TS'ers into REAL LIFE events!

yeah that would be cool.

[Kevin]

Gutted. I thought this was going to be about a football match

[Nimillita]

iran

dont want to be flies in oil

the rest of the west

dont want to be the grain from which that oil is produced

[Chach]

Stars are US military bases, no wonder Iran is a tad paranoid

[Kevin]

Stars are US military bases, no wonder Iran is a tad paranoid

Fucking America

[Slurm]

The government is unpopular but the population are very patriotic. Trying to do anything to the government via military means will play into their hands.

Slurm, do you think America leaving the Strait of Hormuz going to stabilise the region?

Do you think having a nuclear armed military asset dominating the entire region is stabilising it?

Is four decades of propaganda machine stabilising it?

Surrounding a country with military bases is one thing, but an aircraft carrier (and lets not forget its support group) is for force projection, and thats entirely another.

As for Iranians being patriotic, something the Western media has been trying, successfully, to do is blur the boundaries between patriotism and support for government. Its not the same thing.

Its hard to believe people are buying into yank WMD bullshit all over again.

Over a million Iraqi civilians died proving The US and its allies were full of shit. How many Iranians will be an acceptable number?

How much do the seventy five million Iranians have to suffer because the retards in Governance on both sides can't sort shit out properly.

[Hoser]

can you also get rid of our and Americas crazy government too? they aren't doing us (it's people) any favours either.

hell yeh why not kill all teh jews while your at it

[monkey]

Do you think having a nuclear armed military asset dominating the entire region is stabilising it?

Is four decades of propaganda machine stabilising it?

Surrounding a country with military bases is one thing, but an aircraft carrier (and lets not forget its support group) is for force projection, and thats entirely another.

As for Iranians being patriotic, something the Western media has been trying, successfully, to do is blur the boundaries between patriotism and support for government. Its not the same thing.

Its hard to believe people are buying into yank WMD bullshit all over again.

Over a million Iraqi civilians died proving The US and its allies were full of shit. How many Iranians will be an acceptable number?

How much do the seventy five million Iranians have to suffer because the retards in Governance on both sides can't sort shit out properly.

Ok slurm, lets say the US decided to close all the military bases, withdraw their troops from around the world, stop selling weapons, disarm all their nukes and move back towards a policy of isolationism when it comes to war as it was pre WW1 and pre WW2.

Do you think over the next few decades more or less peace would develop?

Before you answer, think of China, Russia, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, India, France, Germany or any other power-hungry nation you can think of.

...if its not the US, it just gonna be someone else who wants control of the region.

We've already written pages and pages on this in the other thread.

[Chach]

#Verstylin

[monkey]

*wankn

yes, yes you are.

[neonknome]

[badr]

Ok slurm, lets say the US decided to close all the military bases, withdraw their troops from around the world, stop selling weapons, disarm all their nukes and move back towards a policy of isolationism when it comes to war as it was pre WW1 and pre WW2.

Do you think over the next few decades more or less peace would develop?

Before you answer, think of China, Russia, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, India, France, Germany or any other power-hungry nation you can think of.

...if its not the US, it just gonna be someone else who wants control of the region.

We've already written pages and pages on this in the other thread.

this is going to be just like when you got all up in Hitchens scrotum isn't it? :/

[Yossarian]

re. Iran...
I dig Iran. Well, not the twinks in charge, or the stonings, beheadings and general lack of human rights etc. But other than that those Iranians are alright.

Let's just say I'm very, very sceptical of anything that is reported in our media. The anti-Iranian sentiment that has been created over the years is astounding. The Yanks have been chip-chip-chipping away since they got their nose out of joint in the 70s and will stop at nothing to get what they've got. Simple. It will happen, and the rest of us will sit back and let it happen, because we all think the Iranians are the baddies.

re. nukes - I see no reason why they can't have a nuclear program when over 30 other countries develop power this way. OH NO THEY MIGHT MAKE A BOMB ffs North Korea, India and Pakistan pose bigger threats than Iran.

/my 2c

I'd be interested to know what kinds of things you think are being misrepresented. The only recent major media events concerned with Iran were the 2009 protests and the continuous disturbing quotes that emanate from Ahmadinejad. I don't really see how the significance of the police and government crackdown on the protests was over-represented or distorted by our media. Especially given a great deal of coverage was 1st hand reports on social media and blogs. You mention the general lack of human rights, do you think that this is over-represented by the media? Not trying to have a go, but I do find it difficult to see reporting of various abuses and positions taken by the Iranian leadership as being distorted by our media to create an anti-Iranian sentiment.

I think a nuclear armed Iran poses a bigger threat than all those nations save perhaps North Korea. This is not to say I think the people are crazy or evil. I think when you factor in the history of Iran and Israel (and statements made by both leaderships), and the seemingly perpetual way the US manages to fuck shit up in the middle east, a nuclear armed Iran perhaps poses the greatest threat to nuclear strikes actually occurring (again, save perhaps North Korea, but given that they are virtually dependant on China for aid, I see it as less of a possibility). As I said previously i'm not sure sanctions are the right discouragement given they tend to affect the people more than the leadership and dick sizing/sabre rattling certainly is only going to make things worse. I do find it difficult to believe that their nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. If I was the Iranians, given the history of the region, I would sure as hell be trying to develop a nuclear bomb quick smart. So while I see their point, I don't think it's a good thing for the world in general.

As a complete aside, one thing that I have noticed recently re: Iran, that I would appreciate perhaps other opinions on, is what seems to be a kind of radicalisation of their government post 2009. That is there seems to be a reduction in the power of moderates such as Rafsanjani, Mousavi and Khatami. I really don't have a lot of knowledge regarding their government but it seems to me that from a human rights and freedoms perspective, things are getting worse for the Iranian people.

[monkey]

good post.

[Multivital]

How dare a middle eastern nation that is clearly surrounded by hostile military forces, that have been aggressing it for decades, ramp up its military deterrence capabilities in order to defend its people and resources from being crushed!*

*THIS OF COURSE DOES NOT INCLUDE TEH J00S

[Hoser]

*THIS OF COURSE DOES NOT INCLUDE TEH J00S

Send dem back to auschwitz amirite???!

[ZD]

the average age in Iran is about 26 with roughly 60% of the population under 30. you think such a young population doesn't want change? If the US and the west would just butt out for the next 10 years or so they'll probably sort themselves out. Just like the Arab spring would've probably come to Iraq if the invasion hadn't of happened.

[nosaj D:]

if that's the age bracket its a wonder it hasn't been swept up with the recent revolutionary movements

[Yossarian]

if that's the age bracket its a wonder it hasn't been swept up with the recent revolutionary movements

Well I think perhaps given what occurred in 2009, people in power learned some pretty effective lessons about shutting down communication quickly and dealing with protesters.

[Multivital]

Send dem back to auschwitz amirite???!

Is that better or worse than covertly supplying their psychotically aggressive fabricated nation state with enough nukes to glass the middle east and make most of europe, africa and asia unlivable?

BETTER ASK HOLLYWOOD